How to: cheap ignition advance

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reelrazor
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How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby reelrazor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:14 am

Okay, here's my first 'how to'.

This is a cheap alternative to the $50+ offset woodruff key that Factory Pro sells to increase base ignition advance. Adding advance will give the engine more punch throughout the rev range.

One advantage of this is that the engine will properly time (by the book) if you have the cams out, or if you adjust/degree cam timing..without having to remove the flywheel and re-install the stock flywheel key.

Plus, it's cheap.

I had done this previously..but had to replace my stator last fall and wanted to ride so I didn't get around to it..just put the stator in with the stock(unmodified pickup) and went riding. I meant to get to it, but didn't. Been raining a lot lately, had a day at home and so did it and took pictures.

You will need:
1) Inductive timing light with tach and advance function.
2) Dremel tool/die grinder, narrow grinding bit, large grinding bit
3) allen wrenches/sockets
4) good #2 phillips head
5) good flat blade screwdriver

Ever wonder what this screw is about?
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It is, as labeled, the timing test hole. Get the screw out.
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Remove the stator cover,
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And, highlight the timing mark with soapstone or a sharpie.

Hook up the timing light (as labeled-red lead to Bat+...black lead to Bat- )
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And, inductive pickup to #1 spark plug wire(making sure the side that says "Spark plug side" is indeed toward the spark plug):
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Start the bike and let warm up until it idles nice. Use the timing light's tach function to check RPMs. You may need to switch the timing light's tach to "2 stroke" setting as we have waste spark and on "4stroke" mode it will read double revs. I set my idle to 1400rpm for this test/adjustment.

Point timing light in 'timing test hole'. Add degrees of advance(mine has two buttons..one scrolls timing 'up', the other 'down') in with the timing light one degree at a time, while watching for timing mark. I found it and added advance until the mark was at the very front/left of the test hole. This was 4° and is "idle base timing advance" :

Image

The goal is to increase "idle base timing advance". The factory pro offset key adds 5°.
As you can see in the next picture....looking into the stator cover, the engine rotates clockwise. Advance will be counter-clockwise. SO, we want to move the pickup coil left. You can also see that the pickup coil mounting screws(phillips head) wanted to strip-so get yourself two stainless 5mm x12mm allen screws to replace them.

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Get the dremel/die grinder out. On the 'back' side of the pickup will be a flange around each mount screw hole. Grind this flush with a larger grinding stone. Use a sharpie and a ruler ..or masking tape to define the 'line' that would be parallel with the edges of the holes. This will be your grinding guide. Grind the holes out to the right (as looking at the back of the pickup). Keep testing the holes for fit with the new stainless screws. You are DONE when the allen head just clears the pickup coil body on the left side of the pickup(looking from the front/near side as installed).

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Clean ALL metal filings/shavings from the pickup and stator.

Reinstall as normal(blue loctite on pickup coil and stator mount screws). Start bike and warm up until nice idle is achieved. Adjust to first test RPM (1400rpms in my case).

Use timing light to 'find' the mark...add timing at the light until mark is in same part of hole (in my case front/left of hole).

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As you can see....I added 6°to my "base timing advance". FOR FREE. IN 30 MINUTES. It is quite enough to make a difference. The test ride was fun....barely wet roads, wheelspin and lighter front end. :cheers:
http://www.michiganmobileservice.com/


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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby shredex » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:39 am

what was the real gain from this?
does is add hp? or torque?
I wanted to do this mod but afriad to do it with my motors current state
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby mxryder21 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:44 am

Thats awesome! Do you need to run higher grade fuel?
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby reelrazor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:52 am

Shred...the manufacturors need to pass emissions....one of the tricks for doing that is to keep the ignition less advanced that what is optimal. This also makes the engine more tolerant of crappy fuel (which is abundant in other places around the world....and with increasing ethanol in ours-here).

It adds power across the rev range. Not a huge amount, but definately noticeable. Throttle response is better. The front end gets lighter when you crack it, in any gear.

mxryder21 wrote:Thats awesome! Do you need to run higher grade fuel?


I run 89 octane Shell fuel (when nearby-but use any mid-grade otherwise). No sign of pinging, and I rode the absolute piss outa it this afternoon.
http://www.michiganmobileservice.com/


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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby mxryder21 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:06 am

You use Shell gas? I was told by mechanic at the local dealer to stay away from Shell gasoline. I cant really remember why but I think he said because of the detergents in the fuel?
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby reelrazor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:16 am

mxryder21 wrote:You use Shell gas? I was told by mechanic at the local dealer to stay away from Shell gasoline. I cant really remember why but I think he said because of the detergents in the fuel?


The dealers looove de-carbon jobs. Pays on warranty AND customer out-of-pocket. Of course they don't like it.

That said, more auto manufacturors specify Shell fuels as the "preferred" fuel than any other brand. And, all shells stations will label at their pumps the percentage (if any) of ethanol. Most states allow gas pumps to dispense fuel with up to 10% ethanol with NO LABELING.
http://www.michiganmobileservice.com/


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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby mxryder21 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:27 am

HA! F*ckin crooks! :cop:

That totally makes sense though. I ALWAYS used Shell/Texaco gasoline before and NEVER had any problems but when Mike said to stay away from it I did. banghead
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby cad600 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:58 am

Highjack -

Ethanol is a natural detergent. It will clean out your tank, carbs, and engine. Only problem is that it first has to go through your fuel line and into your carbs and engine which makes it run like crap. If fuel stations near you had the fuel mixtures changed on them, you and they will know about it. All of the stations around here had to have the pump filters changed daily when the new Ethanol fuel mixtures arrived as it was cleaning the storage tanks and clogging up the filters going to the pumps. Took 15 minutes to put 10 gallons of fuel in my car when this was happening.

- End Highjack

How are you making sure the pick-up doesn't move back over? Or is this not a big concern?
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby ragedigital » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:41 am

cad600 wrote:How are you making sure the pick-up doesn't move back over? Or is this not a big concern?


I doubt they will move, but a set of lock or external star washers under the screws would probably guarantee no movement.

FANTASTIC WRITE UP!!

darrin
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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby reelrazor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:23 am

cad600 wrote:How are you making sure the pick-up doesn't move back over? Or is this not a big concern?


No, not really a big concern. And easily testable(hook up timing light, remove test screw...shoot timing). I've done this(or very similar) on prolly 75 engines (some mine-some customers) mostly on snowmobiles, but plenty on bikes. There's about 8mm of thread engaged on the 5mm dia. mounting screws. Plenty of clamping force compared to the minuscule magnetic field being oscillated by the flyhweel's 'timing bump'.
http://www.michiganmobileservice.com/


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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby haunter » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:42 am

mxryder21 wrote:You use Shell gas? I was told by mechanic at the local dealer to stay away from Shell gasoline. I cant really remember why but I think he said because of the detergents in the fuel?



shell and bp usually are the best, they have done industry studies showing that they are most likely to be giving you the octane(or higher) they are advertising.

They are all I will go to with my SV. I live in a small town currently and the best the gas station has is 89 octane :tard:

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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby reelrazor » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 pm

cad600 wrote:Highjack -

Ethanol is a natural detergent. It will clean out your tank, carbs, and engine. Only problem is that it first has to go through your fuel line and into your carbs and engine which makes it run like crap. If fuel stations near you had the fuel mixtures changed on them, you and they will know about it. All of the stations around here had to have the pump filters changed daily when the new Ethanol fuel mixtures arrived as it was cleaning the storage tanks and clogging up the filters going to the pumps. Took 15 minutes to put 10 gallons of fuel in my car when this was happening.


Not to mention that ethanol is hydrophilic...it LOVES water. And most stations use a little to keep the water from accumulating in their tanks(mixes with fuel, gets put in your tank and burned). Once the switch in blends has been made, and the initial spate of station fuel filter clogging happens...it's business as normal.

And, ethanol has much lower energy potential than gasoline and apprciable amounts of ethanol in fuel will make a good running engine run like crap.

Here, in Michigan(and probably elsewhere) stations are REQUIRED to label their pumps IF they have 10% ethanol or more. Most WILL NOT label at 8%. Shell stations WILL label if they have need to add ethanol in any amount.
http://www.michiganmobileservice.com/


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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby cad600 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:33 am

Yep, all of the stations around Atlanta are required to have a label saying something to the effect of "up to 10% Ethanol blend" but they are required to give exact % if higher.

There was a very interesting article in National Geographic Magazine a little over a year ago that talked about alternative fuels and compared each type. It was rather disturbing to learn about the alternatives available and how crappy corn based ethanol really is. The first biggest complaint is that we were all told it would help ease the crunch on foreign oil and it is cleaner. Well that is a bunch of crap. The ethanol fuel produces less power per gallon that gasoline, the refineries that make it have to burn 1 gallon of gasoline to produce 1 gallon of ethanol, and while it produces less CO2, it produces more of another chemical that is more harmful to us. I commend the government for stepping up and commiting to a plan but they should have looked at all options instead of looking only at the fact that our farmers are hurting and that we produce 10 time the amount of corn than the rest of the world combined.

One very interesting part the article talked about what Brazil (I think it was Brazil) did. Back in the late 70's they started producing sugar cane based ethanol and stopped buy crude oil for gasoline cold turkey. They are completely self reliant for fuel now and sugar based ethanol yields twice the power as corn based while only requiring 1/4 gallon of fuel to produce 1 gallon of ethanol.

I need to find that article again.
Yes, that is a Single Sided Swingarm FZR600 that I built.

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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby yamaha_george » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:49 am

cad600 wrote: I commend the government for stepping up and commiting to a plan but they should have looked at all options instead of looking only at the fact that our farmers are hurting and that we produce 10 time the amount of corn than the rest of the world combined.
I need to find that article again.



Hi,
the real problem is that the US is "burning" more corn, where as the corn was exported (earning money) to other regions of the world who now are paying more as there is less corn (as food) available. That and the west has mad the consumption of meat on a daily basis almost mandatory in places like china and india (which was largely vegitarian) seem like the way to live so more land is given over to meat producing ie no crop only grass so less food is actually grown.

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Re: How to: cheap ignition advance

Postby yamaha_george » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:07 am

[quote="reelrazor"]Okay, here's my first 'how to'.
Plus, it's cheap.


You will need:
1) Inductive timing light with tach and advance function.{/quote]


RR,
nice write up and for once as you say cheap & relativly easy. My only point is the make & model of your timing light.

I have not seen one like that except from SUN when I had my workshop (still have it but at 4K miles and 10 flying hours in each direction ...........)

Pointers to sources would be good too as I doubt that many "ordinary" folk have one

Thanks for the work. Are you going to add it to the WIKI ??????
S &F
Y-G


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